Archive for the 'Interviews' Category

In 4 minutes 30 seconds Chris Winfield talks about the benefits & risks, key factors, pricing, targeting, and success metrics of a Social Media Optimization.

Kevin Lee is no doubt one of the thought leaders in Search Engine Marketing. He is co-founder of Did-it.com, Chairman of SEMPO, a weekly columnist for ClickZ; and he is a regular speaker at all the Search Engine Strategies conferences. Additionally, Kevin sits on the Search Council for the Association for Interactive Marketing and the IAB Search Committee. Considering his busy schedule, he graciously agreed to answer a some questions about the current state of Search Marketing.

1. How would you describe the state of Search Engine Marketing today?

Marketers are trying to decide where the functions of organic and paid search engine marketing belong within an organizational structure as well as how to integrate search into an overall marketing and media plan. While paid and organic SEO share keywords and a SERP (Search Engine Results Page), they are very different disciplines and require different technology as well as different expertise.

2. How important is the golden triangle in Paid Search vs. SEO?

As the paid listings get more relevant and the search engines get more and more SEO spam, I predict that Google, Yahoo and Microsoft will allocate increasing screen real estate to paid listings. As the relevance of the paid listings approach or surpass organic results it’s actually in everyone’s best interest to show paid listings.

3. What percentage of budget would you recommend an advertiser allocate for Paid Search vs SEO?

Budget allocation between SEO and Paid Search is an individual decision. However factors that influence the ratio are competitiveness in each, breadth of content, base pagerank (or how well the domain is already doing from a linking perspective), CPC prices across the keyword universe for that marketer, in-house vs external resources, technology infrastructure for current site.

4. How would you differentiate Maestro from other bid mgmt & conversion tracking software?

Maestro has evolved t be much more than a bid management and conversion tracking platform. What you do with the click once you buy it is as important as making the decision which clicks to buy at which price in which engine at what time of day, etc. Currently, except for a few agency relationships, Maestro is used exclusively by internal Did-it teams. We invest a significant amount of time and energy training and re-training our teams on how best to use Maestro, including the testing and advance click-routing features.

One way to think about why we evolved beyond bid management is a comparison to traditional media. It’s not just where you put the advertising (the media buy), it’s the creative, the offer and the follow-up that makes a campaign successful.

5. What’s your opinion on Portfolio mgmt vs. Keyword bid mgmt?

By end of the first Quarter of 2007, all the engines will have a hybrid, opaque auction that uses predicted CTR and other relevance factors as well as bid to determine position. In that kind of ecosystem, it is all about the math. The systems in the best position to effectively manage bids are those that have the best formulas able to both predict the value of a click to a specific advertiser, and the likely responses to a marketplace of bid changes. Portfolio is a word used by some to describe a specific set of formulas. The right way to manage keywords differs by client just like the best way to manage a basket of stocks differs based on the investor and their appetite for risk or volatility.

6. In a branding campaign, do you see any value in Impressions?

Impressions at the top of the SERP clearly have a far greater chance of being seen. But impressions are not created equal. Like banner placement, listing placement on a page is even more critical. However, given the new bid landscape formulas any listing that achieves high position will likely be a combination of relevant creative (high predicted CTR) and a reasonable bid.

7. Can you explain how Did-It uses the Predictive modeling approach to manage paid search?

Not without an NDA in place. Suffice it to say that the best campaign management systems bind a balance between prediction (proactive action) and reaction (using very recent data to respond to changes and opportunities in the marketplace).

8. How would you describe the performance of MSN Search since they terminated their agreement with Yahoo?

Performance has been stellar because most advertisers aren’t live there yet (no pun intended). Sure there is room for improvement in the front end, but performance is very good.

9. What tactics does Did-it use to manage Click Fraud for their clients?

If I said too much, then those tactics wouldn’t work anymore. Careful analysis of trends and knowing what earlier data will predict helps ferret out the material instances of click fraud or the introduction of a large poor quality syndication partner by and engine. Additional analytics help identify if there are specific problems from a source of clicks.

10. Paid Search spending is forecasted for double-digit growth, year after year for the next several years. With the huge influx of advertisers, do you think there is a future for PPC arbitrage?

Pure click arbitrage will be increasingly challenging. However, the lead-gen arbitrageurs who sell the same lead miultiple times will still have significant success in the market due to the economics of selling a lead multiple times.

11. How does Did-it track offline telephone orders that come from Search, down to the keyword level?

There are several ways we do that. Essentially we customize the process to the needs of specific marketers because some of them don’t control their telemarketing operators and need complete automation, others are already asking customers for coupon codes or extensions for their other marketing activities and therefore don’t necessarily need to provision huge blocks of inbound numbers or use more costly VoiceXML driven systems which incur a per-minute cost. In a predictable business, just knowing the percentage of phone orders, and the relative value of operator assisted orders is enough. However, for some businesses it makes total sense to use inbound toll-free redirection, perhaps even on a per-keyword level.

12. How comprehensive is Did-it’s process for developing and managing keyword lists for paid search?

As comprehensive as it needs to be. Keyword refinement is an ongoing process, not just something done at the initial stages of the campaign. Having some listings in broad or phrase match becomes a net by which additional keyword expansion can occur. Also, we have some internal tools built using fairly expensive third-party data that can be killer for keyword discovery.

13. How do you rate the comparison shopping engines vs. the SE’s in terms of performance? Do you happen to like any one better than the rest?

CSEs are a great part of an overall search mix. I have no particular preference because some work better than others for different clients, especially now that they have branched beyond traditional SKU-based retail into additional categores.

14. Any thoughts on why MSN stopped accepting submissions to their web directory?

Lets skip this question, since I have no strong opinion here.

15. How has Did-it enhanced it’s technology and/or services offering since last year?

An improved suite of testing tools has significantly improved our ability to run AB and Fractional Factorial design tests for those clients for whom it makes sense. We have been honing our AI (the bidding system) to factor in changes in Google’s AdRank calculations. I can’t talk too much about the click-routing enhancements, those we talk about only under NDA.

16. What is the typical profile of a Did-It client?

Any serious search engine marketer who spends more than $30K a month on search, contextual and behavioral media. These marketers also understand that constant testing is critical to continued improvement. There are dozens of things to test and each successful test multiplies its efficiency gain against earlier successes. It also helps if marketers have a strong understanding of their own business and marketing objectives.

17. How much do the services of Did-it cost?

Typically it is a percentage of spend, but in some cases we have been willing to structure some other deals where we also participate in upside profit gain through our involvement in the campaign.

18. If you could give one piece of advice to somebody about optimizing their Search campaigns…what would it be?

Think beyond the keyword. Keywords are only one way of targeting, take advantage of the fact that different people search on the same keyword but your most valuable customer may be targetable though additional means beyond the keyword including but not limited to time of day, day of week, geography, and in Microsoft, Age/Gender. Combine additional targeting on a core campaign with search retargeting (following prior search visitors around the web with relevant advertising offers), and you have truly begun to optimize.

19. Does Did-It target any specific vertical industries? If so, what industry-specific resources, services, expertise, and/or client base does Did-It offer to this industry?

At this point, I think we have clients in nearly every industry. So far the CPG and brand marketers have not come calling, because I think they are a bit perplexed about how best to take advantage of search, contextual and behavioral media.

20. What’s your Executive Vision for Did-it? How will you execute this vision?

Did-it will continue to excel at helping clients unleashing the profit potential from their campaigns. We have hitched our cart to the major players building media marketplaces, Google, Microsoft and Yahoo. We also continue to monitor other firms who are making media available through other automated or partially automated markets. We plan to apply our years of leadership in the auction-based-media space to the future advertising marketplaces. I’m even writing a book about the way search has been a catalyst that may change the way marketers buy media, and how that coincides with major shifts in the way consumers consume media online and offline.

21. Any predictions on the outlook for the Search industry, and how Search fits into the digital marketing mix?

Success in search is to a great extent a byproduct of all other media, marketing, PR, sales and advertising initiatives. People don’t search spontaneously. They are driven to search by other media, word-of-mouth, PR, and even store experiences. An integrated marketing and advertising plan goes beyond even the digital marketing mix to understand media mix models and how consumers make buying decisions. Making search decisions in a vacuum results in the wrong decisions being made.

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Thanks Kevin.
I gotta say, I love hearing you speak at the conferences, and this interview was just as fun…no, more fun. There is a lot for the readers to digest here. Speaking for everyone, we really appreciate the time you took to share this wealth of knowledge.

I recently got to know Greg Hartnett from the web directory: Best of the Web… or BOTW for short. BOTW is the internet’s oldest web directory. Greg has been in the search industry since the beginning. As a matter of fact, BOTW is the first reference in Larry Page and Sergey Brin’s college thesis paper that started Google (I ask about that during the interview). In my opinion, there is no better person to interview about web directories. Enjoy!

Q: What is a Web Directory, and how is it different from a Search Engine, or Internet Yellow Pages?

A: Typically a directory is categorized and sorted by humans – actual people review each site, describe and title it, and categorize it accordingly. Each site is reviewed to ensure editorial guidelines are met, helping to keep spam at bay. The search results from a directory are limited to the pool of sites that are listed within the directory. The Internet Yellow Pages would be an example of a niche directory, as they tend to deal with commercial sites exclusively.

By contrast, search engines tend to be driven by spiders attempting to crawl all of the content online, and sorting the results according to proprietary algorithms. Search engines draw their results from a much wider set of data, and use filters to combat spam and irrelevant results.

Q: What is the benefit of getting your site listed in a Web Directory?

A: Getting listed in a quality directory can prove very beneficial to a site owner. Through proper categorization, a site owner should expect relevant traffic from the users of the directory.

Additionally, most search engines tend to value listings in a directory as a trusted link. Due to the editorial control of a directory listing, search engines view a listing in an authoritative directory as a sign of confidence that your site is a quality resource.

Q: Are web directories just acceptable Link Farms?

A: That would really depend upon the type of directory you are referring to.

A link farm is no more than a collection of links, typically uncategorized, and displayed in a haphazard way. Link farms are designed for the sole purpose of manipulating search results, with no benefit for a user, and little, if any benefit to the site owner.

A web directory, while also a collection of links, is categorized, and all listings undergo editorial review. The directory should be built in a manner that is intuitive and provides users with relevant resources. A directory is built for the user, not for the search engines.

So a quality directory would have no resemblance to a link farm, while a directory built solely as a means for webmasters to pay their way to higher search listings would have a lot in common with a link farm.

Q: Are there any web directories, or “Spam Directories” we should stay away from?

A: Absolutely. As is the case in any industry, there are some businesses you should work with, and some you should steer clear of. A site owner should do some homework, and make sure that they have confidence in the quality of the directory. Some things that may signal a sub-par directory:

- Run of site links
- Listings of poor quality
- Javascript links to sites
- Overuse of keywords in titles and descriptions
- Directories less than a year old
- Directories with overpopulated top level categories, and empty sub categories
- Directories powered by an off-the-shelf script

Basically, go with your gut. If you come across a directory that doesn’t feel right to you, or if you have doubts as to the quality of the directory, then pass on submitting. There are plenty of places online for you to find quality – don’t settle for less.

Q: Which directories are considered to be the most trustworthy, and why?

A: I think that Yahoo and DMOZ would inarguably rate as the top directories. Their comprehension, user base, commitment to quality, and age help to set them apart. Of course, I’d like to think that BOTW is regarded as a trustworthy and authoritative directory, but my opinion might be considered a little biased. I also think that Business.com and Microsoft’s bCentral do a good job with their directories.

Q: What reasons would BOTW decline a site submission?

A: We have a pretty straightforward set of guidelines. If the site contains a substantial amount of unique content, relevant to the category, it should get in. It also helps if the site is designed well, and is easy to navigate. Most sites are rejected because of poor content.

Q: Why do some directories have free submission, and others have a fee? What’s the difference?

A: With few exceptions, directories are run as businesses. As such, the owners would like to make a profit. So, most directories worth their salt will carry some type of fee. I think that directories not charging any type of review fee, or not monetizing their submissions, are short sighted, and will have trouble with scalability.

Additionally, many directory owners have a submission fee to simply discourage spammers. A site owner is going to think twice about submitting 25 subdomains of his craptastic, made-for-Adsense site if there is a fee associated with submitting each one.

Q: How is BOTW’s submission fee determined?

A: Running a successful directory is a resource-intense operation. It takes a lot of human capital, and quite a bit of technology to make everything run smoothly. We try to price our review fee to allow for directory growth, while striking the right balance of value for the site owner. More than anything though, the review fee is priced upon supply and demand, and I think we have found a nice price point that enables us to grow, while still providing the site owner with a value.

Q: Is it more important to get a link on a relevant niche directory, than a comprehensive directory like BOTW?

A: It is more important to get a link in a quality directory – period. Niche or general is not really important – it’s the quality that counts.

Q: Is it important for online marketers to use the smaller web directories, or is submission to BOTW good enough?

A: Submission to BOTW is definitely not good enough. While a good start, there is much more for a webmaster to do than simply submit to BOTW. I would definitely look at smaller web directories, bearing in mind what I said previously about quality. I would rather submit my site to just a handful of quality directories than have a link in every site from some directory list.

Q: Google said it will devalue links that are bought for the sole intention of increasing PageRank. BOTW costs money, and many people buy it for the PR. Are you worried BOTW’s links will be devalued?

A: I try not to concern myself with those matters very much. We are fully committed to building a quality directory – a resource for users to find relevant information. We focus on doing our thing, and let the search engines do their thing. The chips fall where they may.

It is important to note that webmasters can’t buy their way into BOTW. We do charge a fee for an expedited review, and all commercial sites are required to pay for review. Site owners pay for the review – which by no means guarantees a listing. People pay and get rejected frequently.

Also, we do accept free submissions for non-commercial sites. Though there is no guarantee on review time, we do get around to looking at the free submissions too. Moreover, for every site that we add via the submission process, our editors add more than a hundred other sites on their own. The directory build is a colossal undertaking – if we relied solely on submissions, the project would be a shadow of what it is today.

Q: For people concerned about Google PageRank, can people rely on web directories as a valuable link in their link portfolio?

A: A listing in a directory is a valuable link in the portfolio of all webmasters –those concerned with PageRank or not. The editorial control of the directory lets humans and spiders know that the listing is relevant to the category, and can be trusted to provide quality content.

Q: Should site owners expect click-thru traffic from a web directory? Or, are web directories really just for link popularity?

A: Yes, you should definitely expect click-through traffic. Of course, traffic will vary depending upon the directory, and upon the category in which you are listed.

Q: What are the top 3 most popular categories, and their top sub-category?

A: Our most popular categories are: Adult, Business, and Society. Over the course of the last six months, we have noticed a marked increase of interest in the Regional branch – part of a growing trend towards local search.

Q: What if someone submits their site, and after inclusion in the directory they decide to radically change the site? Is there some kind of detection process in place for deception?

A: Sites are reviewed by editors on a continual basis. At a minimum, all sites are reviewed once a year to ensure that they are still relevant to the category. That is one of the reasons for our annually recurring fee.

Q: Are there any enhancements, or new features we can expect from BOTW?

A: Absolutely. We’re never content resting on our laurels, and we are continuously developing new products and services.

Just recently, we enhanced our search functionality on the Best of the Web blog directory, and going forward we will pursue additional opportunities. The social networking aspect of the web really fascinates me, and I’d love to see us make more or a splash in that arena.

Q: Why would someone use BOTW’s Blog Directory instead of Google’s Blog Search or Technorati? What’s different about BOTW?

A: Quality over quantity. BOTW offers users splog-free results (no spam blogs).

Q: BOTW is the internet’s oldest web directory. What changes/adaptations do the web directories today need to make to survive?

A: Directory owners need to stay focused on the long view. Too many directories, in an effort to get rich quick, sacrifice on the quality of the listings, or go for the big advertising money. Directory owners need to be prepared for a slow grow, and would be wise to plan on not making very much money for a long time.

Q: I read the official announcement of why the Zeal Directory shutdown. Do you think there is another, untold reason why they shutdown?

A: Zeal was a drain on an already struggling company. Looksmart never had a focus, or a model around Zeal – they simply threw money at it, hoping it would provide some synergies down the road. Unfortunately, that day did not seem to arrive.

Q: What was BOTW’s involvement with the thesis “Backrub” by Sergey Brin and Larry Page?

A: In the paper “The Anatomy of a Large-Scale Hypertextual Web Search Engine�?, Page and Brin cite BOTW in regards to quality of search. So, we had pretty much no involvement, save the role of grateful recipient of the citation �??

Q: What is your biggest challenge?

A: My biggest challenge is managing our resources effectively. We run a pretty tight ship, with only a handful of full time employees and a freelance crew of approximately 100. We have so much that we try to get done, and only so many people to handle the load.

Another major challenge for us is striking the right balance between comprehension and quality. While we strive to build a comprehensive directory of all information online, we also need to maintain the high standards that people expect when they visit BOTW.

Q: What’s the best part of your job?

A: Two things in particular. First, I am thrilled to be involved with the creation of a quality resource. I love the fact that we are building something with legitimate value – something that will endure.

Secondly, and probably more important, I am lucky to be involved with a great group of people – each of whom share my passion about the directory. After years of laboring in corporate America, I am proud to help run the anti-corporation. Being in the presence of intelligent and dedicated people really helps push me to excel.

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Thanks Greg.
Speaking for myself, and all the readers, we really appreciate the wealth of knowledge you’ve shared today.
Kudos to you and the entire team at BOTW